Topic: "Critique Guideline Suggestions"
Session Start: Tue Aug 03 21:31:23 1999
<Marty> you gonna voice/devoice then Liane?
<Liane> Ok Marty, you go first
<Liane> no Marty you voice/devoice once you and I have shared our opinions
<Marty> okey dokey.:-)
<Marty> Critiquing gets to be a touchy subject sometimes. Even among
some of the pros.
<Liane> Some people are afraid to critique
<Liane> thinking they can't
<Marty> I like to hear the music personally along with viewing the
lyrics since sometimes it makes the lyrics standout more.
<Liane> a few over-critique
<Marty> However, when looking at lyrics, I hate to see or do an autopsy
on the words.
<Liane> we're looking for balance
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<Marty> I look for meter, rhyme, pattern held throughout. Hook there,
strong chorus, does it make sense, things like that.
<Liane> welcome Kathy.. channel is moderated right now.. you will have
a turn to share your opinion though when Marty gives you a 'voice'
<Liane> I have to say when I read a song, most of the time I just have
no opinion on it.. so I don't critique mch
<Liane> much
<Liane> I just think it's alright the way it is
<Marty> I don't check for mispelling per se, word usage maybe if unclear
to me, like Liane's Far Away Land usage I think it was.
<Liane> lol!! Almost Land!!
<Marty> does the music leave me humming
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<Marty> I don't look at dcotrine, I'm no thelaogian, but if the message
doesn't make sense then i would ask about that.
<Liane> I think having a critique guideline would encourage me to critique
much more.. so it probably would help other too
<Marty> not sure I focu on similes or metaphors, but rather overall
feel from the piece. Does it reach me, touch me, pleasing to the ear and
the words relevant to me.
<Liane> sorry Marty... this is supposed to be your turn! lol
<Liane> what do you do if the song just doesn't 'catch' you?
it just doesn't pop out at you?
<Liane> I feel a bit guilty not critiquing enough songs
<Marty> Each person is touched differently by different things so we
need to try and keep focus and try not to dictate our own self into what
the other person has or may have intended.
<Liane> true
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<Marty> Hopefully we gently nudge, encourage, suggest rather than flame
the poor individual for whom it may be their very first attempt or they are
weak lyrically but strong musically or vice versa.
<Marty> is it a personal song, for congregational use, these are helpful
to know since then you might look at it differently.
<Liane> yes.. know the writers' audience
<Marty> not sure I check that the person used isconsistent throughout
but that is a consideration.
<Marty> 1st, 2nd, 3rd, plural thing.
<Liane> don't critique a song written for a different audience as though
it should be written the same way as the ones written for your audience
<Marty> there are other items that may come into play but these are
the things I would focus on.
<Marty> done.
<Liane> ok I think most of my opinions are interwoven between yours
marty lol
<Liane> couldn't stop myself
<Marty> Laughs Out Loud
<Liane> ummm
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<Liane> I just hope this guideline thing encourages me to critique
more
<Liane> I want to use it as a guide when I read someone's song and
get into a habit of looking for certain things... and also use that habit
as I'm writing my own songs
<Liane> ok go ahead and give someone a voice Marty!
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<Marty> DC you want to join the discussion?
<dc> depends what your talking about. ;-)
<Marty> critiquing
<Liane> how to critique songs.... what to do and what not to do
<Marty> things you would look at when critiquing a song/lyrics
<dc> sure - sounds interesting
<Marty> go ahead then.:-0
<Liane> if not just say pass but you are still welcome to stay and
read other people's ideas
<dc> I like vivid descriptions and well made points
<Liane> is there anything you have not liked in a critique you have
ever recieved?
<Marty> anything else you would look for or not look for?
<dc> Liane, I have only sent in one song for critique, and the only
thing I didn't like was that no negative comments were made. ;-)
<Liane> Laughs Out Loud
<Liane> ok are we ready for Dale to have his turn now then?
<Marty> we should always balance or try to balance the good comments
and bad comments.
<Liane> and comment on the important things
<Liane> not spelling
<Marty> Dale you ready yet?
<Liane> Laughs Out Loud
* DaleB crams pizza into mouth
<Marty> Laughs Out Loud
<DaleB> ok
<DaleB> I can relate to some of the things that Liane said
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<DaleB> about not always knowing what to say or whatever
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<Liane> I guess we need to know what to look for eh?
<DaleB> CSG is very lyric oriented, and music is more my gifting
<DaleB> I think the list that you and Marty put together is very good
<Liane> thanks.. we like it
<DaleB> Now that more people are getting sound files up I'm in a position
where I can't listen to them at home :-(
<Liane> :(
<DaleB> some lyrics just don't grab me, and I might have more interest
in them if I could hear the music
<Liane> I hear ya
<DaleB> sometimes I don't critique because I don't want all my comments
to sound negative
<DaleB> other times I'm just too busy
<DaleB> anyway....I guess i should make some constructive comments
here.....
<Liane> Laughs Out Loud
<DaleB> I think focus is one of the most important things we should
be looking for
<DaleB> often times poeple try to cram too much into a song
<Liane> that's one thing that should be stated in a critique of a song
if it is noticed
<DaleB> the more technical things like accent/meter/rhyme are important
too, but they come with practice in writing
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<DaleB> ok...I guess I'll give someone else a chance
<Liane> thanks Dale
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<Liane> lol
<Marty> IHP?
<Liane> yeah
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<Liane> when someone is given a voice it changes in the order of the
list
<Marty> love it when someone in the list leaves as you send a command.:-0
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<Marty> Laughs Out Loud
<Marty> IHP want to share or pass?:-)
<InHisPresence> I agree with what been said
<Liane> nothing to add then?
<InHisPresence> I also like to hear the music along with th lyrics
<InHisPresence> the musical meter and lrical meter somtimes contribute
to each other and thats important
<Liane> you mean they affect one another?
<InHisPresence> yes
<Marty> meaning music matching the lyrics?
<Liane> interesting.. I need to learn more about that... would like
to see that critiqued in my songs
<Liane> no.. the syllable stresses
<Liane> and the rythm of the music
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<Liane> Welcome Back dc
<InHisPresence> yes liane
<Marty> oh, that thing again.:-)
<Liane> Laughs Out Loud
<Marty> Welcome Back DC
<InHisPresence> but for the most part we need to encourage
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<Liane> that never seems to be critiqued for any of my songs... does
that mean I don't have a problem in that area?
<Marty> we ever get happy Birthday right?
<Liane> I don't think so!
<Liane> it was a tough song to pick anyway
<InHisPresence> well i'm done
<Liane> should always start simple and work our way up to happy birthday
lol
<Liane> thank you InHisPresence
<Liane> that was quite interesting
<Liane> I guess Hillcountry would be next.. unless he wants to pass
<Liane> uh oh.. our voice giver is being disconnected
<Liane> on IM anyway
<Liane> nickname here could just be a ghost
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<Liane> yep..he'll brb
<Liane> here he comes
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<Liane> Welcome Back Marty
<Marty> ok back. AOL boot.
<Liane> Hillcountry might want to go next?
<Marty> done IHP?
<InHisPresence> yes
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<Marty> Hil wants to pass
<Marty> wait one, hill does want to share.
<HillcountryJesusfreak> I think lyric and meter all varies on what
direction you are aiming the song
<Marty> ok Hill
<HillcountryJesusfreak> sometimes a collison fits other times not
<HillcountryJesusfreak> I belive in working with an end in mind and
expirmenting to get that end
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<HillcountryJesusfreak> that is all really I have to say lyric meter
are tools
<Marty> ok
<Liane> Kathy would ahve been next :(
<Liane> hope she's coming back
<Marty> me too
<Marty> Rgraceful?
<Liane> go ahead Rob
<rgraceful> I think it should be
suggestions not guidelines ,I like the
at home feel of the list lol
<Liane> how do you mean?
<rgraceful> I like to here what people
think
<Liane> to me guidelines means not a rule just a suggestion
<Marty> well, it is guideline suggestions.
<Marty> not concrete but rather a guide to help.
<Liane> it is a guideline for what to look for when critiquing.. to
help you in making your suggestions
<rgraceful> to voice there heart and
mind and let me know how and if
my song had an impact on them
<Liane> (and what not to look for)
<rgraceful> I rewrite endlessly is it
ok to help someone with a rewrite\
<rgraceful> or is that a bad way to
critique
<Liane> to voice our heart and mind and let you know how and if your
song had an impact .. I think that is an excellent way to critique
<Marty> one pro I talked to made the comment that :anyone who
looks at similes and metaphors is crazy: most of the other pros agreed with
that to a lessor degree -- go figure.
<Liane> if someone is asking for help, suggestions, to rewrite their
song... then it's good to help them that way
<Liane> really Marty????
<rgraceful> i want to know what a
woman in canada feels about what my
song says to me that is gold
<Marty> yep.
<Liane> :)
<Liane> is that a hint Rob?
<Marty> key elements for them is hook, melody memorable, meter, story,
rhyming.
<Liane> I should critique more of your songs? lol
<rgraceful> i love to read lyrics i
get to see inside someones heart and
mind
<rgraceful> yes what you think is a
great to us all
<rgraceful> help
<Liane> I am a woman in canada
<Liane> anyway.. go on...
<rgraceful> i don't know how but i
still do the guidelines will help if
you give classes i'll take them
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<rgraceful> together we are stronger and
write better songs
<rgraceful> I know i have been blessed
by any and every word on the
list..that's all
<Liane> I think this critiquing thing just takes practice.. but using
the guideline to decide what to look for will certainly help
<Liane> :)
<Marty> it helps place us on common ground.
<rgraceful> I'm done
<Marty> ok
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<Marty> Wes?
<Wes> Yes, caught me day dreaming!
<Marty> anything to share, thoughts, comments?
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<Wes> This has been very interesting. I'm new to the list within
the past month, so I am new to critiquing and being critiqued. I do
think some of the critiques I have seen have been a little too nit-picking.
<Marty> well, I look at some and wonder why the autopsy. An autopsy
to me means the song was dead before it had a chance.
<Marty> what things would you expect or want to see in a critique or
not want to see?
<Wes> Exactly. I have to agree with others above in that I am
finding it difficult to critique when I can't hear the music.
<Marty> That is a problem. We have some who are lyricists only, some
only do music, those who do both or those who collaborate could post to the
CSG Critic Board or get help by asking.
<Marty> especially where they have no website presence of their own.
<Wes> I guess its due to the fact that I do both. I work as hard
to make my music what I want it do be as I do for the lyrics. To me
a musical hook is just as important as the lyrical hook.
<Marty> are there any things you would expect or want to see in a critique
or not see?
<Marty> yes, both are key items.
<Marty> anything more?
<Wes> Those things you mentioned that the pro's look for; hook, melody
memorable, etc. I'm working at being able to have my music on a website
so then I can be critiqued a little better. Guess that's all for
now. Thanks for the opportunity.
<Marty> ok.:-)
<Marty> hang on while I unmoderate so all can talk.
<HillcountryJesusfreak> now who yaps first I guess me
<Marty> ok, so any comments in general about critiquing?
<rgraceful> we need to do it as
much as we can
<HillcountryJesusfreak> well some songs hit people differently there
are universals but there are always other things that effect taste
<Marty> that is one of the things we need to remember when critiquing.
We each have diff tastes.
<dc> relevency - a song must have a theme and all lyrics must fit the
theme - most important
<rgraceful> daves right it does make
us better writers
<Wes> The audience is important, because lyrics that would work well
for one type of song would be terrible for another type.
<rgraceful> i agree wes
<HillcountryJesusfreak> good point
<Marty> who is the song for is important.
<HillcountryJesusfreak> Military Brat blues would be horribly offensive
at a church but right in line with Deep Ellum
<Wes> Rob, I liked your comment about how lyrics allow us to see inside
someone's heart. That's what I hope mine do.
<rgraceful> marty could we have a form
or questions to answer as a header
for all critiques
<rgraceful> to answer key questions
<Marty> well, I'm hoping to work up such a form or list.
<Marty> i have a lot of stuff that needs to be edited for duplication
but Liane and i were gonna work on one.
<Marty> It would be general in nature.
<rgraceful> good i don't know what to
put i cant post music too many
problems
<rgraceful> yes just the basics
<DaleB> sometimes it is helpful if a person states some specific things
they would like comments on...but that's not the critiquer's job ;-)
<HillcountryJesusfreak> as far as critiquing we all know the standard
cliches like the haunting story song in a minor key
<Marty> if you need help some of us might be able to help. I know i
did one for Helen from a wav file that took over 4 hrs to download to me
via ICQ.
<HillcountryJesusfreak> because a minor key has that haunting feel
<rgraceful> many on the list have
tryed to help me but i think it
must be hard ware or hard head
lol
<Wes> or both :-)
<Marty> Laughs Out Loud
<rgraceful> oh i talked to helen
sunday she told me to tell everyone
hi
<Marty> Yeah, her computer is still on the injured list.:-(
<rgraceful> she's doin good her puter
is shot
<DaleB> I'm never going to let her touch my computer!
<rgraceful> shes back at the coffee house
<Marty> anyone else have any further comments on critiquing? If not,
I'll change topic to open discussion.
<rgraceful> she is strong in the Lord
<HillcountryJesusfreak> you are the boss no objections from me
<Wes> I Peter 4:10
*** Marty changes topic to ' Welcome to the Songwriter's Chat! General Fellowship discussions.'
Session Close: Tue Aug 03 23:42:54 1999