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Topic: Songwriting Principles for Congregational Singing"
Session Start: Tue May 18 21:30:36 1999

[Liane] ok ready to start
[Liane] some of these single chorus only songs are unbeleivably simple!
[Liane] "Praise the Name of Jesus"

[Marty] which p&w book you got?
[Liane] Praise the name of Jeeeesus!
[Liane] Praise the name of Jeeeesus!
[Liane] He's my rock!
[Liane] He's my fortress!
[Liane] He's my deliverer!
[Liane] In Him will I trust!
[Liane] Praise the name of Jeeeeeeeesus!

[Liane] that's it
[DaleB] I know that one
[DaleB]> the music is very simple too
[Liane] "Master Chorus book 2 -- 100 contemporary, traditional, and new choruses" (compiled by Ken Bible)
[Liane] Ken Bible! lol
[Liane] Principle number 1: simplicity
[DaleB] I've got a couple of Maranatha books...but darn it left 'em at church after youth choir tonight
[Liane] principle number 2: repetition
[Liane] did that one rhyme at all?
[Marty] Mranatha/Integrity/Praise&Worship books with a lot of others.
[Marty] does have rhyme
[Marty] got/rock, Jesus/fortress
[Liane] 'trust' rhymed with Jesus.. but what was the rhyme 'scheme' exactly?
[Liane] got?
[Liane] what 'got'?
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud
[Liane] oh you mean the line you put in!
[Marty] I'm looking at a line inbetween that got in.:-)
[DaleB] I don't really think it's a "rhymer"
[Marty] no rhyme.
[Liane] at least not on purpose
[Liane] trust/Jesus are a near rhyme
[DaleB] repetition is the key, more than rhyme
[Marty] I don't see that near rhyme or feel it myself.
[Liane] ok I can't say that being a short song is a principle.. because some of these choruses have 2 and 3 parts to sing
[Liane] but they are still simple
[Liane] by part I dont' mean like in harmony.. I mean like verses and chorus and bridge etc
[Marty] the parts or harmonies are not the issue since almost any song can have harmony
[Marty] oh!:-)
[Liane] lol
[Liane] glad I clarified that in time! :-)
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud
[Liane] the next one is a good one to look at too

[Liane] "Great and Mighty"

[Liane> Great and might is the Lord our God
[Liane> Great and mighty is He
[Liane> Great and mighty is the Lord our God
[Liane> Great and mighty is He
[Liane> Lift up your banner,
[Liane> let the anthems ring
[Liane> praises to our King
[Liane> Great and mighty is the Lord our God,
[Liane> Great and mighty is He!

[Marty] no real rhyme except ring/king
[Liane] has both simplicity and reptition and this one also has rhyme
[DaleB] repetition is the biggie though
[Liane] ok and let me add:
[Marty] uses same word to rhyme.
[Marty] which I don't think of as rhyming.
[Liane] "Lift up your banner let the anthems ring" is sung more quickly than "praises to our King".. they are about equal in sung length I think
[Liane] same word to rhyme?
[Liane] you mean the repetition?
[Marty] God.....He.......
[Liane] I wouldn't really call that rhyming ... just repetition

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[Marty] right, repetition not really rhyme.
[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat Amelia!
[DaleB] Welcome Amelia!
[Liane] if the rest of the line was different but the line ended with the same word.. then I'd call that rhyming with the same word
[Liane] Hi Amelia we're looking at some p & w choruses.. starting with the simplist
[Amelia] Okay
[Amelia] So sorry I am late....
[Liane] so far we came up wtih 2 principles : 1. simplicity and 2. repetition and both songs we've looked at has both of these
[Liane] the second one only has 1 rhyme in it
[Liane] the first didn't really rhyme
[Liane] whoa!
[Liane] talk about simplicity and repetition!!

[Liane] "Let the Redeemed"

[Liane] Let the redeemed of the Lord say so
[Liane] Let the redeemed of the Lord say so
[Liane] Let the redeemed of the Lord say so
[Liane] I'm redeemed
[Liane] I'm redeemed
[Liane] praise the Lord!

[Liane] that's it
[Liane] no rhyme
[DaleB] who wrote that one?
[Liane] Ward Ellis
[Liane] 1978
[Liane] ok how about this one
[DaleB] ok...just wondering if it was Danny Daniels...who uses a lot of repetition...just look at his name!
[Liane] lol Dale

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[DaleB] Welcome Chrysostom!
[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat Chrysostom!

[Liane] "More Precious Than Silver"

[Liane] Lord, You are, more precious than silver,
[Liane] Lord, you are, more costly than gold,
[Liane] Lord, you are, more beautiful than diamonds,
[Liane] and nothing I desire compares with you

[Liane] thats' it
[Marty] another simple no rhymer one.
[Liane] the beginning of first 3 lines is repeated
[Liane] and although not as simple as the previous.. it is still simple
[Marty] and title is only once in song.
[Liane] even in the way that the first 3 lines differ.. they are similar
[DaleB] I have a song that has repeated beginnings of lines
[Liane] precious.. costly... beautiful
[DaleB] the kids at my church love it
[Liane] I've always called this song "Lord you are"
[Liane] I wondered why this book gives it that name
[Liane] 4 lines.. only the last one is different
[Marty] That's the title of it.
[Liane] says something new
[Marty] I have it in several of my books.
[Liane] 'Lord You Are' is the title?
[DaleB] no...'More Precious'...
[Liane] oh
[Marty] no, More Precious Than Silver.
[Amelia] I didn't think it was...all my books say More Precious
[Liane] now if I had written this song I would have called it "Lord You Are"
[Liane] I find that odd
[Liane] oh well
[Marty] I don't.
[DaleB] I did it weird titling my song like that too
[Marty] it's not the normal stance to have the title only once but many songs do that.

[Liane] "Lord I lift your name on High"

[Liane] Lord I lift your name on High
[Liane] Lord I love to sing your praises
[Liane] I'm so glad your in my life
[Liane] I'm so glad you came to save us
[Liane] 2nd part:
[Liane] you came from heaven to earth, to show the way
[Liane] from the earth to the cross, my debt to pay
[Liane] from the cross to the grave,
[Liane] from the grave to the sky,
[Liane] Lord I lift your name on high.

[Liane] you can see the simplicity
[Liane] line one and two starts with Lord I and line 3 and 4 start with I'm so glad
[Marty] this one has rhyme in the verse, I'd call the first part the chorus.
[Liane] that's also repetition
[Liane] 2nd part says something different from 1st part.. adding to it

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[Liane] but in a VERY creative way
[Liane] ABAB near rhyme in part one
[Marty] see I still don't feel the near rhyme.:-(
[Liane] 2nd part I think lines 3 and 4 should be one line
[Marty] diff sounds.
[Liane] high/life praises/us
[Liane] the long 'i' in the first two
[Liane] the ending 's' in the second
[DaleB] I think it works as near rhyme in this one
[Liane] actually... praises/save us
[Liane] the long 'a' and the ending 's' together
[DaleB] yeah! what you said
[Liane] :-)
[Marty] ok, that I'll concede.
[Liane] easy to follow along
[DaleB] we're breaking him down, Liane!
[Liane] lol
[Marty] not really but their not one word rhymes, they are phrase rhymes.
[Marty] diff animals.

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[Liane] "There's Something About That Name"

[Liane] Jesus, Jesus, Jeeeesus,
[Liane] There's just something about that name
[Liane] master, Savior, Jesus
[Liane] Like the fragrance after the rain
[Liane] Jesus, Jesus, Jeeeesus,
[Liane] let all heaven and earth proclaim,
[Liane] Kings and kingdoms, will all pass away,
[Liane] but there's something about that name!

[Marty] rain/name/proclaim/name
[Liane] some have told me that would be too much of a rhyme
[Liane] like in a 4 line chorus.. each line rhyming with 'all'
[Marty] I don't think so, there's too many pieces that do that with the last word being the same rhyme thruout.
[Liane] I see the 'Kings and kingdoms' line as an extra.. interrupting a pattern
[Liane] but it still works quite well if you know the song
[Marty] yes, it does.

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[DaleB] I don't know that one
[Marty] Welcome Back Amelia
[Liane] almost bridge like in the melody there
[DaleB] wb Amelia
[Amelia] sorry bout that
[Amelia] Dunno what happened
[Liane] Welcome Back
[Liane] the music for this song is not simple!
[Liane] there is a pattern that is on the simple side.. Lyrics wise that is
[Marty] It's not?
[Liane] not to me!
[Marty] thought it was.
[Liane] I have:
[Liane] A C#m7 Em A7 D Dm6 Dm A C#m Em F#7 A B7sus B9 B13 B7 Bm7 E7 A C#m7 Em A7 D D6 D7 C#sus C#7 F# F#M7 F#7 A B7 Bm7 C#m A-D-A
[Liane] that's the whole song
[Marty] easy chords, when all else fails play every other chord, if that fails find the chord on the beat.
[Liane] to me that is not a simple chord sequence to play!
[Amelia] capo :)
[Marty] just need to be able to play quick chord changes.:-)
[Liane] I don't have B13 type fingers for my keyboard
[Liane] or even 9s
[Liane] I have small hands
[DaleB] that's because you're not a guitarist
[Marty] as they say, practice, practice, and practice.:-)
[DaleB] Liane you don't have to include every single not
[DaleB] uh...note
[Liane] but this is the type of chord arrangement thing I'd like to learn to come up with in my own songs
[Liane] those weren't notes.. they were chords
[Liane] oh!
[DaleB] I'm saying you don't have to have 1 3 5 7 9 11 & 13
[Marty] Not me, if it gets too busy with the chord changes, you lose the not so skille d player.
[Liane] in this song it works well though marty
[DaleB] 1 3 7 and 13 is good enough and you can mess with the voicings
[Liane] oh never mind I misunderstood you Marty
[Liane] I always forget which one is the 13th
[Marty] oh, it does. and I don't have a problem pdoing those types of chord changes.
[Liane] the 5th an octave higher?
[DaleB] 6th an octave higher
[Liane] ok we're getting off topic :-)
[Liane] those are the simpler congregational songs
[Marty] you took us there.:-)

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[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat Sno--man!
[DaleB] Welcome Sno--man!
[Liane] what about songs like 'The Battle Belongs to the Lord'
[Liane] which has multiple verse and a chorus
[Marty] to me it's more of a performance song than a congregational piece, seems most folks listen to it rather than sing along, though the teens do pretty well.
[Sno--man] Thanks and Hi yaw'll
[DaleB] well...serve some up..we'll talk about 'em
[Liane] not at the church I go to.. we all sing it together.. the whole thing
[Liane] as if it were a simple chorus
[Marty] Hi Sno, you finally coming out of hibernation?:-)
[Marty] young congregation Liane?
[Liane] 1500 people
[Liane] oh, yeah
[Liane] 20's 30's 40's
[Liane] and older [lot's of teen's too and tons of kids]
[Marty] the old folks are slow or fight new songs stuck on LP mode.:-(

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[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat BassinCWB!
[DaleB] Welcome BassinCWB!
[BassinCWB] Finally caught some people here
[BassinCWB] had a school awards assembly to go to
[Marty] we be here each Tues at 9PM Eastern and Sat. at 3PM Eastern.
[Sno--man] Me too BassinCWB
[Sno--man] Proud of my daughterr, she took a few awards for a good student
[BassinCWB] Both of mine got some awards too.
[Liane] well I don't know what happened to it.. but I can't find "the battle belongs to the Lord"
[Liane] I had it in my binder from when I used to be in the choir
[Sno--man] Cool Bass
[BassinCWB] What is the topic??
[Liane] ok back on topic please!!
[Liane] "writing for congregational singing"
[Liane] we are looking at different praise and worship songs and trying to come up with principles for them and then seeing if other songs follow the same ones
[Sno--man] Praise & Worship to Hymns?
[Liane] no not hymns.. hymns need different principles
[Liane] so far we came up with 1. simplicity and 2. repetition
[Liane] we have looked at very simple p & w
[Liane] now I'd like to type out the words to a Don Moen song (integrity hozanna???)
[BassinCWB] ok

[Liane] It's quite a nice one.. it's called "I want to be Where you Are"
[Liane] I just want to be where you are,
[Liane] dwelling daily in your presence,
[Liane] I don't want to worship from afar
[Liane] draw me near to where you are

[Liane] I just want to be where you are
[Liane] in your dwelling place forever
[Liane] take me to the place where you are
[Liane] I just want to beeeee with you

[Liane] (next part)
[Liane] I want to be where you are
[Liane] dwelling daily in your presence
[Liane] feasting at your table
[Liane] surrounded by your glory
[Liane] in your presence
[Liane] that's where I always want to be
[Liane] I just want to be...
[Liane] I just want to be with you (first 4 lines from beginning... then...)

[Liane] O my God
[Liane] You are my strength and my song
[Liane] and when I'm in your presence
[Liane] tho I'm weak you're always strong

[Liane] I just want to be where you are
[Liane] in your dwelling place forever
[Liane] take me to the place where you are
[Liane] I just want to be
[Liane] I just want to be with you.

[Liane] that's it
[Liane] whew!
[Marty] this one has a great music setting, some rhyming, and a message that draws you.
[Liane] ok comments
[Liane] lots of repetion
[Liane] stays focused well on a simple singular idea
[BassinCWB] It is a good song I sang it in the GOD WITH US musical
[Liane] melody is simple and repetitive too
[Liane] but clearly not as simple as the previous songs we've looked at
[Liane] how many have sung this song as a congregation?
[Sno--man] Don't think I've heard it
[Marty] I have.
[BassinCWB> choir special but not as a congregational
[Liane] I know at our church we could do it.. but for some reason I don't remember ever doing this song.. we have done many others that are as long as this one
[Liane] as a congregation I mean
[Marty] same with God will Make A Way.
[Marty] more easily done in a teen mass but choir piece when with older congregation.
[Liane] we have done God will Make a Way as a congregation
[Liane] same with the Battle Belongs to the Lord
[Marty] depends on the audience/congregation makeup.
[Liane] any more comments about writing songs for congregational singing in general then?

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[Marty] most of your older folks are not too keen on all this new fangle music.

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[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat Guest03814!
[DaleB] Welcome Guest03814!
[BassinCWB] So the idea to writing the praise & worship for congregation is to keep message simple and melody easy to repeat as many times as necessary??
[Liane] so it depends on the church you go to.. that will change your personal songwriting principle then
[Sno--man] Welcome Guest
[Liane] looks that way
[Marty] yes, very much so.
[BassinCWB] And depends on the mood you wish to set for the congretation

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[Liane] we're just discussing what the principles/guidelines are for writing these types of songs by studying some of them
[BassinCWB] ok you mean mechanically
[Liane] so I think changing the mood wouldn't change the principles.. or would they?
[Sno--man] I think it is important to be simple but not vague in words... sounding cliche'-ish is not good... takes away form it
[Liane] yeah as opposed to the songwriting principles if your goal is to be heard on the christian radio and do concerts and record cd's
[BassinCWB] No that would be more in the actual lyrics and music

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[DaleB] Welcome wandsjen!
[Liane] (snoman): talk about not being vague!! take a look at this song:
[Liane] even though it is simple and repetitive... it's definately not vague and doesn't use cliches

[Liane] "O Lord Your Tenderness"

[Liane] O Lord, your tenderness,
[Liane] melting all my bitterness
[Liane] O Lord, I recieve, your love

[Liane] O Lord, your loveliness
[Liane] changing all my unworthiness
[Liane] O Lord, I recieve your love
[Liane] O Lord, I receive your love
[Liane] O Lord, I receive your love.

[Liane] 4 'ness' rhymes
[Liane] short simple song
[Liane] repetitive
[Liane] but still stated so creatively and very nicely
[Liane] gives a nice image
[Liane] very lovely words
[Liane] not vague
[Liane] and doens't use cliches
[Liane] very original
[Liane] and very lovely melody as well
[Liane] worked very well at our church
[Liane] any other comments on this song?

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* DaleB is tired
[Liane] ok this concludes the topic for tonight

Session Close: Tue May 18 22:33:28 1999